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[moonbeamsfanfic]

Question: Why don't we have a "pre-het" category?

I mean, if in a story two male (or two female) characters flirt and show a clear undertone of sexual or romantic attraction, the story is not listed as being Gen. It's called pre-slash, because while there is no overt kissing or sex, the inference is obvious that two same sex characters either wish to or will get together non-platonically at some point after the fic.

So how come stories in which two heterosexual characters flirt/exhibit desire but don't actually kiss 'on-screen' are still considered Gen?

Why aren't they pre-het?

Why is there that unconscious inference that the presence of heterosexual relationships don't violate General fiction's standard clause of "no sex or romance" but inferred homosexual relationships do?

ETA Underlying Question: What makes a story Gen?

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This meta question is brought to you by a reader who's had to stop reading far too many so-called "gen" fics because of unexpected pushing of a disliked het 'ship. (Even if nothing physically happens, the constant presence of the unwanted 'ship hovering over every action and character development never fails to completely ruin an otherwise fine story. It's very disappointing, actually.)

Please, if you have any insight into this, please comment! I'm honestly curious to know why this situation exists, and why it's considered acceptable by... well, pretty much everyone. I don't think I've ever seen this question raised before, in any fandom. I'm not ashamed to admit this puzzles me.

Thank you,
Moon.

ETA: Just in case, please note that my replies to your comments are NOT arguments -- just further questions. I'm simply, honestly, curious about this issue. I just want to know. Please, feel free to say anything you think or feel! The more input, the better the discussion! Thank you!

Comments

[dknightshade.livejournal.com]

I think you're looking at it backwards. The reason for the pre-slash warning, IMHO, is that some people get offended by even the hint of a same-sex relationship and will complain loudly. I think that as a result, either consciously or unconsciously, authors warn more broadly about hints of slash than hints of het. Having started in a fandom where there is a lot of objection to slash, I found myself rating slash stories higher than het stories. As I read more and thought about it more, I tried to fight that inclination because I don't think it's right or fair.

So in other words, I don't think that the pre-slash warning is a case of protecting the purity of the Gen label which is what you're looking for but a desire to warn of slash. Since most people live in hetero-centrist societies in the real world, het couples around and about are 'normal' and therefore don't need a warning.

[moonbeamsfanfic.livejournal.com]

I agree that the reasoning behind the origin of the term "pre-slash" was derived out of a fear/hatred of slash as a whole, but my point still stands. Because it kind of is about protecting the 'purity' of the Gen label.

jinxed_wood brought the real question to light, I think. What makes a story Gen?

The way I've always seen it, Gen stories are about the plot or action. The mystery, the suspense, the hurt/comfort, the AU... whatever. Character development follows the plot and occurs in reaction to it.

But what I'd classify as pre-slash or pre-het are stories in which the plot is used as a tool to further the character's relationship. The main theme isn't the action, it's the pairing -- but because the pairing is never "resolved" on-screen with kissing or sex, it's still called Gen. And I still don't get that.

Sorry, edited twice for spelling/grammar because I'm an illiterate idiot. D'uh! :)

[dknightshade.livejournal.com]

If the main point of the action or plot is to get the characters in a position where they will end up together, then personally, I'd call that a PG rated ship fic, not Gen. But that's where I draw the line. I don't think that the existence of a relationship or acknowledgement of a past relationship in a story means it isn't Gen but of course different people have different ideas on that.

Most shows (or other fandom canon) have pairings -- often quite explicit ones -- that a lot of fans don't like reading about. What about them? Are they left to just cross their fingers and take a chance every time they pick a story to read?

Personally, I kind of think this gets a little out of hand sometimes. Like if Pete's name gets mentioned in a SG fic it has to be warned about? I kind of think that if it's canon and it's not a big part of the story people should be able to deal with it. If it's specifically focused on Sam and Pete (explicitly or not because a ship fic can be G rated too IMHO) then it should be in the summary or 'warnings.' But I'm not an OTP person at all so I really don't understand the absolute hatred that seems to come with characters who interfere with an OTP. There are no characters that I couldn't read about in passing.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Why is there that unconscious inference that the presence of heterosexual relationships don't violate General fiction's standard clause of "no sex or romance" but inferred homosexual relationships do?

While I would be the first to say that our culture is too hetero-normative, i don't think this is what is going on here. It's not a 'warning' per se, but a promise. (or gen stories pretending to be slash in order to pick up readership :-P)

As for the whole gen thing, I think there is a mix up sometimes about what 'Gen' means. For instance, I consider 'gen' a rating and not genre, and if a story has a pairing (either het or slash) I put it under my character/pairing line.

[moonbeamsfanfic.livejournal.com]

As for the whole gen thing, I think there is a mix up sometimes about what 'Gen' means. For instance, I consider 'gen' a rating and not genre, and if a story has a pairing (either het or slash) I put it under my character/pairing line.

I think this is might be the big underlying issue right here. Because I have always seen Gen as a genre -- and you have to agree, at least, that most major fic archives also tend to use Gen, Het, and Slash as categories to organise their fics. A "G" rating, for example, means no bad words, violence, or romance included. But a fic categorised as Gen will very often contain a great deal of violence, sometimes some very bad words, and (being the reason for today's meta question) the possibility of a subtextual het pairing.

So then, what defines a Gen story? Would a nice action/adventure hurt/comfort canonical/AU fic focusing on the plot and suspense instead of character relationships be Gen? Most of us would probably happily say yes, if only because the presence of a relationship (either het or slash) is simply NOT the point of the fic.

But what a character-driven piece in which developing that sexual or romantic attraction is the main theme and purpose of the fic, with any action or plot just being used as a device to achieve it, but the story ends before the relationship can be realised on-screen? Does that count as a gen story too? Because to me, it's not. It might be rated G, but it's about the pairing so ought to be categorised as such.

So then, what makes a fic Gen? Heck, for that matter, what makes one pre-slash or (if it existed) pre-het? Where's does the distinction become important?

[magic-8ball.livejournal.com]

Lots of great points already made, but I'll add my two cents'...

I agree with others who've written that Gen should probably be considered a category rather than a genre (which really should be restricted to mystery, sci-fi, action/adventure, etc.), but I'd add a couple of points. I totally agree that slash and pre-slash are likely often labeled that way because of the continuing taboo regarding those categories in many circles/fandoms, and I think it's totally appropriate to warn readers who might get skeeved (and thus avoid having to waste 10 seconds reading an unnecessary flame from someone who felt offended at the lack of a warning). However, there is no such stigma attached to het and pre-het stories in our culture. Furthermore, since the vast majority of canon pairings are, in fact, he, it would totally make sense for an author to think it appropriate t label a story featuring a canon pairing as Gen, even if the "plot" was merly a device to focus on the pairing. (And as an aside, it's worthwhile to pay a bit of attention to the fandom itself. Many fandoms focus largely on the characters, while others focus strongly on plots. So writing a fic where the plot exists primarily o drive character interaction may, in fact, be a completely appropriate structure for a Gen label in that particular fandom.

In my own view, I label something as Gen if it tends to follow the canon treatment of characters. So if I have a pairing, and it's canon, I'm likely to us e a Gen label. I can't imagine I would ever label something specifically as Het. Then again, I don't know that I've ever written non-canon or slash pairings... so I can't say my input is all that useful at all.

[jedibuttercup]

I've seen that happening, too; I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them are from age or cultural or religious segments of the population in which homosexuality is not just uncommon, but viewed as "squicky" or "wrong". I'd also be willing to bet that if you could follow those same authors through a couple of years' worth of fanwriting, the level of "pre-slash" they warn for would tend to moderate. I blame environmental influence, in other words.

(Although I will edit to say, re: jinxed_wood's note-- there probably is some "maybe more people will read this if I say John/Rodney (for example) even if it's really just a gen story that happens to feature the two of them", in more slash-heavy communities. But I read in a number of communities where anything slashy is very much NOT the norm as well, and there, the warnings tend to be more as I've noted above; i.e., "Don't comment just to tell me that ew, there's boys flirting with boys, because look, see, I've warned you!" And so on.)

On the "pre-het" front, however-- while I don't see warnings for that often, I have seen "pairing" warnings on a story, both het and otherwise, that include every hint of possible romantic intentions under the sun, no matter how utterly minor or "references to past canon" they might be. That is a total turn-off for me as well.

My thought when posting a story usually is, if the flirting/whatever is only to a level of what's been shown on the show between those particular characters, then there's no need to warn, either way; I see some very, very gen stuff getting the "pre-slash" label all the time just because there's banter or show-level H/C going on, which is ridiculous. However, if it moves outside of the show boundaries, then it's only courtesy to mention that in the summary or author's notes.

[moonbeamsfanfic.livejournal.com]

Okay, I see where you're going with this. For you, the distinction of "pre-slash" or (hypothetically, of course) "pre-het" are simply unnecessary, yes? You make no distinction either way. (which is, admittedly, probably the most enlightened viewpoint, but not one many of us can claim, alas.)

What, therefore, is your definition of a Gen story? (Thanks to jinxed_wood for bringing the underlying issue to the forefront.)

My thought when posting a story usually is, if the flirting/whatever is only to a level of what's been shown on the show between those particular characters, then there's no need to warn, either way; I see some very, very gen stuff getting the "pre-slash" label all the time just because there's banter or show-level H/C going on, which is ridiculous. However, if it moves outside of the show boundaries, then it's only courtesy to mention that in the summary or author's notes.

This is a good answer to my above question actually, but has one draw back. Most shows (or other fandom canon) have pairings -- often quite explicit ones -- that a lot of fans don't like reading about. What about them? Are they left to just cross their fingers and take a chance every time they pick a story to read?*

*And yes, I know this opens up the issue of whether a writer is responsible for warning their audience of potential squicks or if it's entirely the reader's problem... but can we just postulate from a middle-ground point of view of some kind of description being warranted and go from there. That okay with you?

[jedibuttercup]

Well-- if the story is about the romantic relationship or the buildup thereto, whether canon or not, or if it contains any explicit material, it's not going to be "gen" regardless. In such a case, it would definitely get a pairing/het/etc. warning.

If, on the other hand, it's a story focused on someone else, but contains acknowledgement of the pairing in the background, I'd put something like-- "gen, but contains (canon/non-canon) pairings", or something similar, with more detail in the notes.

I make much more of a distinction between "is the romance the focus, or a significant part of, this story?" versus, well, anything else.

[moonbeamsfanfic.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, that's a fair work-around. Thank you!

If only every author was so generous with the notes as you. :) I adore as much advanced notice before reading a fic as possible, warnings or spoilers or notes or descriptions, etc..., but far too many authors simply do not satisfy that desire for knowledge ahead of time. Some authors flat-out refuse to use warnings of any kind, others don't realise something they think is obvious/normal could be a potential turn-off for someone else. Maybe it's just a foolish pipe-dream, but I rather wish there was some kind of universal guideline all stories could follow so everyone would also know what they were getting into before they committed to reading it.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

This is a good answer to my above question actually, but has one draw back. Most shows (or other fandom canon) have pairings -- often quite explicit ones -- that a lot of fans don't like reading about. What about them? Are they left to just cross their fingers and take a chance every time they pick a story to read?*


But isn't that the nature of all fiction, not just fanfic? There is sense of entitlement, among fanfiction's readership that can be a bit silly sometimes, and I'm not just talking about the whole slash/het/gen issue. Some readers get very uppity if they don't like a way a relationship or character is portrayed, and while a person is entitled to dislike a particular pairing/ characterisation, I think that the readers being vocally 'offended' by it is another thing, and demands that the writer warn people about every single thing can get a bit wearying.

Genre, for me, are words like action/adventure/romance. I've added slash because people expect it, but I'm not comfortable with it. From my point of view, a rating and/or pairing should be enough.

Also, I'm also uncomfortable with rating something N17 just because it had a sex scene on it. For me, N17 is only justified by extreme violence and rape, not a love scene, but I suspect I'm being influenced by how things are rated, cinematically, here. Similarly. I wouldn't rate an action/adventure with violence as 'Gen', I'd rate it as PG!

[soshoni.livejournal.com]

Over a year late to the party, but I figured I'd pipe up anyways.

I passively dislike the pre-slash descriptor, because most stories labelled so are either pretty darn slashy (abf) or I have to squint harder than I do with the canon material to see it.

However, it makes people comfy, so that's cool. In the interests of equality, I'd love to see a pre-het tag being used, and it would be nice to have some warning, but I'd likely have the same quibbles as with pre-slash.

The way that I most commonly see gen used and what I expect to find on seeing something labelled as Gen is whatever is canon for the source material in regards to what pairings, if any, are present and to an extent, the level of detail given to those pairings.

Once any romantic or sexual relationship is taken beyond the level of development in the source material, or is shown in more explicit detail, I would expect it to no longer be labelled Gen.

For instance, one of my sadly tiny but fav fandoms, features a married gay couple who kisses romantically. So a story with that in it is so very Gen, but in another fandom would deserve a very well stated Slash tag. Now if the story has that couple going at it like rabid minks, then a slash warning is perfectly justifiable.




Oh hey, I found your journal by way of Katsuko and those delightfully filthy stories that you two are bouncing back and forth. Heh. I'm not creepy, I swear.